Wordless Wednesday ~ World Peace

Swindells, Robert "Abomination"

Swindells, Robert "Abomination" - 1998

A Friend told me about this book and lent it to me. She had taught it at school and was sure I would like it. And I did. What a story!

The story of Martha is heartbreaking. She has no freedom, she is kept like a prisoner at home. She cannot make friends. Children at school bully her. Well, that part I could comprehend because I had that same problem at school. My parents didn't have much money and my mother used to sew all my clothes. They were nice clothes but I was always bullied because of it. And I didn't belong to anyone.

But luckily my parents were just ordinary Catholics and they would always complain about people who placed religion over their own family. Because this is what Martha's parents do.

I cannot go into the story without revealing what happened and why the family behaved like that. Only this, Martha does make a friend and he helps her to find to herself.

I am sure this book would have a different effect on children than they have on me but I was pretty shocked.

From the back cover:

"A dark tale of shameful secrets, religious intolerance, and breaking through the emotional chains binding one girl to an abusive home life Martha is 12—and very different from other kids, because of her parents. Strict members of a religious group—the Righteous—their rules dominate Martha's life. And one rule is the most important of she must never ever invite anyone home. If she does, their shameful secret—Abomination—could be revealed. But as Martha makes her first real friend in Scott, a new boy at school, she begins to wonder. Is she doing the right thing by helping to keep Abomination a secret? And just how far will her parents go to prevent the truth from being known?"

What's in a Name 2026 Reading Challenge

I have been participating in "What's in a Name?" ages ago (2014 and 2020) but then the person who did it finished and I somehow lost touch.

Now I found this on Margaret's page BooksPlease and decided to join again. This is currently hosted by Andrea at Carolina Book Nook. It was started by Annie, who was ten or eleven at the time, on her blog Words by Annie. First Beth @ Beth Fish Reads and then Charlie @ The Worm Hole took over hosting before handing it over to Andrea.

So, this is a ‘must‘ challenge for me!

The words we need to find this year are:

Six/6:
Titles for this category need to include the word "six" or number "6" somewhere in the title, even if they are part of another word or number.

Cold weather:
Your title for this category should include a word that describes cold weather such as "snow," "ice," "blizzard," "frozen," etc.

Peace:
Titles for this category need to include a word that describes peace: "peace," "serenity," "still," "calm," etc, even if it doesn’t directly mean "peace."

Pathways:
Titles for this category need to include a words that are types of paths: "trail," "road," "avenue," "sidewalk," etc.

Terrain:
Titles for this category need to include a word for a type of topographic terrain or the name of a particular part of terrain.
Lanschot, Reinier van "We are Europe" (NL: Wij zijn Europa: een nieuw Europees verhaal) - 2024

Flower:

Titles for this category need to include a type of flower or the word "flower."

I don't know whether I will manage to fill all the challenges but, as you say, have already done one.

Oates, Joyce Carol "Daddy Love"

Oates, Joyce Carol "Daddy Love" - 2013

I have always loved books by Joyce Carol Oates and often said, she should receive the Nobel Prize for Literature.

I have read many of her books but she has written so many that I won't get to all of them soon.

When one of my blogger friends (Lisa @ Captivated Reader) talked about a buddy read she had started with another reader, I was very keen to join in. They had already started and I still had to get the book, so I joined in a little too late. It was still interesting to have someone to talk to directly.

Lisa already warned everyone that this is the darkest novel she read by JCO and that is something to say because her books usually are pretty dark. And she is right. It's about child abduction and abuse, lots of psychological problems that come along with it.

The author has a great way of describing the trauma of the abduction by describing it five times from different angles. As always, the author uses fantastic ways to let us into the story.

I would love to write more but don't want to say too much. 

If you are interested in the buddy read, here is the discussion I had with Lisa. But there are spoilers!

 

Chapter I - 1 - 5
Abduction
Ypsilanti, MI, 11.04.06

M: At first I was a little surprised that the abduction was described five times. But it is a good way of introducing us to the whole story. How did it all happen? How did the abductor manage to snatch away little Robbie?
L: Yes, the abduction is described in five slightly different ways... At first, I was wondering why JCO was describing the abduction so many times. But, I felt describing the abduction of Robbie was a very cinematic way of sharing the traumatic event with readers giving us a slightly different perspective/feel with each retelling of the abduction. Additionally, I felt that perhaps describing the abduction this many times gives us a view of how traumatic it was for Robbie's mother physically, mentally, and emotionally. I can't even begin to imagine being a mother of a child and having my child snatched from me in such a horrific manner. So, perhaps this is another way of showing how this event affected Dinah so very deeply. It seems to me that Dinah most definitely had PTSD. How could she not after what happened to her son and herself? We (or at least myself) felt the guilt that Dinah had over losing her son. Dinah blames herself for not protecting Robbie enough and being too tired, giving me the feeling that if she'd been more alert then perhaps things would have turned out differently... And perhaps, Robbie would not have been abducted from her. Classic case of mother's guilt. I also felt like the first five chapters were very atmospheric. JCO really knows how to deep dive into the minds of her characters. JCO is such an excellent writer. Even though Daddy Love is a difficult read due to the subject matter, it is a very readable book in and of itself. I found that I was able to read this novel really quickly.

Chapter I - 6-10
6 Church of Abiding Hope, Detroit, MI, 12.04.06
7 I-80 East, Michigan, OH, 13.-14.04.06
8 I-80 East, Ohio, PA, 14.04.06
9 I-80 East, PA, NJ, 15.-16.04.06
10 Kittatinny Falls, NJ, 27.04.06
Introduction to Daddy Love and how he grooms Robbie

M: So, we get introduced to "Daddy Love" and how he grooms Robbie. Certainly not chapters for the faint-hearted. But a good description to find empathy amongst the readers. Poor little Robbie. You always ask yourself how children, once taken from their real parents, don't look for them, don't alert anyone. Now we know why. JCO has described this so well. Robbie couldn't because he didn't know any better. He believed "Daddy Love" who found great arguments to tell him why his parents didn't want him any longer. And he was too young to really remember how all that happened. We also get introduced to the Church of Abiding Hope. I never trust those sects, no matter how they always insist of being "free churches. Or any kind of over-religious people, even from the main-stream ones.
L: We're into the meat of Robbie's abductor, Daddy Love (AKA Chet Cash). Boy, isn't Chet a piece of work!? It's interesting to see how JCO lays out the storyline for Daddy Love. I've read Zombie by JCO and Daddy Love is shaping up to be similarly creepy as a character. It was interesting to read about Chet's background and his previous abductions. We see how he has evolved in stalking and abducting children and separating them from their parents. Chet/Daddy Love is a real narcissist as he fantasizes about a made for tv movie about his life. In chapter 9, we hear Robbie now being addressed as Gideon now by Daddy Love. We learn that Gideon means Brave Warrior. Seems like the meaning of Brave Warrior may be a bit of foreshadowing to come later on in this novel as Robbie just may live up to the meaning of his new moniker. Chet/Daddy Love understands the way to brainwash and manipulate young minds through repeated abuse and isolation. Young children, Robbie's age, are easily controlled after being abducted. They can only rebel for so long before succumbing to the brainwashing. Additionally, young children of Robbie's age do not have enough life experience or understanding to know enough about how the real world works in order to escape initially.

Chapter I - 11-14
11 Ypsilanti, MI, 05/06.06
12 Kittatinny Falls, NJ, 07/08.06
13 Kittatinny Falls, NJ, 08/09.06
14 Ypsilanti, MI, 08/09.06

M: Here we get to see what this whole abduction has done not only to the child but also to the parents. I cannot see how someone can get through that, how they still can live. Only the hope to see the child again, the wish to be there should he turn up again, can make them stay halfway sane. Oh gosh, how can you get through this? We have to wonder how any marriage can get through such an upheaval.
L: As far as Daddy Love goes, it's a tough read! When I wrote my blog review of this novel I mentioned that this novel is not for everyone due to the trigger warnings of physical, mental, emotional, and sexual abuse of minors. But I think Daddy Love is very much worth reading for everyone despite the subject matter and I can get into that once you've finished this novel, if you like. Yes, the killing of the dog was cruel and uncalled for by Daddy Love. Daddy Love was angry with "Gideon" because of the way the teacher fawned over "Gideon" to Daddy Love. Daddy Love's retribution was to kill the dog that "Gideon" loved so much. Daddy Love never liked the dog anyway.... Everyone and everything is a "tool" to be used by Daddy Love and this is apparent throughout the entire novel. Daddy Love is a true sociopath and narcissist. He doesn't care for anyone or anything beyond its usefulness to himself.

Chapter II - 1-5
II 04-05.12
1-3 Kittatinny Falls, NJ, 04/12
4 Church of Abiding Hope, Trenton, NJ, 05/12
5 NJ Transit Station, Trenton, NJ, 05/12

M: How weird that the teachers did not dig deeper. I mean, something was obviously wrong with "Gideon". My son and his friends once were beaten by other children at a birthday party in an indoor playground and since he inherited getting marks all over the body just from hitting a chair or so, I told the teachers so they wouldn't think it was us. They said, don't worry, kids who get beaten at home always show other signs, as well. And "Gideon" did show a lot of other signs. Killing the dog was another huge cruelty that should have been noticed by someone. What about those other "religious" people? As I said earlier, they only think of themselves and pretend to be "good" people. And the incident in the transit station. That guy gets worse all the time. And why did Robbie not take the chance and ran away? Because he wasn't aware of that possibility and that's what "Chet" wanted to try. But, oh so cruel!
L: Yes, I agree with you that you'd think the teachers would think that "Gideon" was being abused, but Daddy Love was always so pleasant when interacting with people in the outside world and this included "Gideon's" teachers that I think the teachers would have had a difficult time coming to terms that Daddy Love was an abusers. Daddy Love seemed to be a good con artist in this way. Daddy Love seemed to have a dual personality. I think this came about when Daddy Love spent time in Juvenile Hall as a youngster for his crime and had faked his behavior to his probation officer after being released in order to make it seem like he'd been rehabilitated for the world outside. Yes, it's difficult to understand how people turn out badly under some circumstances, while others have trauma, but still manage to be normal and not turn into monsters.

Chapter II 04-05
1-3 Kittatinny Falls, NJ, 04/12
4 Church of Abiding Hope, Trenton, NJ, 05/12
5 NJ Transit Station, Trenton, NJ, 05/12

M: That church again. They pretend to care so much about people but don't see through such a huge betrayal. I mean, how does nobody wonder why "Chet" always turns up with different boys who then disappear? Does anyone really care about anything than their own soul? I don't think so. And what about that episode with the transit station? I suppose he watched "Gideon" to see whether he can trust him now. But it's all completely weird. Well, we should never try to understand such a cray person, might be contagious.
L: Yes, the killing of the dog was cruel and uncalled for by Daddy Love. Daddy Love was angry with "Gideon" because of the way the teacher fawned over "Gideon" to Daddy Love. Daddy Love's retribution was to kill the dog that "Gideon" loved so much. Daddy Love never liked the dog anyway.... Everyone and everything is a "tool" to be used by Daddy Love and this is apparent throughout the entire novel. Daddy Love is a true sociopath and narcissist. He doesn't care for anyone or anything beyond its usefulness to himself. Yes, I agree with you that you'd think the teachers would think that "Gideon" was being abused, but Daddy Love was always so pleasant when interacting with people in the outside world and this included "Gideon's" teachers that I think the teachers would have had a difficult time coming to terms that Daddy Love was an abusers. Daddy Love seemed to be a good con artist in this way. Daddy Love seemed to have a dual personality. I think this came about when Daddy Love spent time in Juvenile Hall as a youngster for his crime and had faked his behavior to his probation officer after being released in order to make it seem like he'd been rehabilitated for the world outside.

Chapter II 06-10
6-9 Kittatinny Falls, NJ, 05/12
10 Ypsilanti, MI, 05/12

M: The killing of the dog was definitely not a surprise. I think I said that I am not a great animal lover and would never want a dog but that doesn't mean I would want to kill an innocent animal. Just shows what type of character he is. I mean, he also killed those children, right? As to the teachers. I think I told you the story about my son and the bruises. Those teachers would have said something. And I have seen it in classes where my kids were that the teachers had an extra eye on children with "weird" behaviour. "Gideon" certainly fit that description. And they know that some parents behave differently in the open than at home. It gets worse and worse. We find out that he not only abuses his victims but also uses them for his work. Well, another thing that doesn't surprise. And while we fear the worst by the Evil One's announcement that he is looking for a "little brother", we can also see how things get worse in the original family. My goodness, how much compassion I feel for them, especially the mother
L: Have you read the parts yet where Gideon essentially turns into a criminal!! Gideon visits his teacher's home and starts a fire was mind blowing!! Gideon did this all because his teacher had told Daddy Love what a great art student Gideon was and Daddy Love didn't take it well. It's like Gideon thinks it is his teacher's fault and not Daddy Love's fault. the kid has been brainwashed for sure! Then there's a child labor issue with daddy using Gideon to macrame items to sell at boutiques and then pawning it off as his own to sell and make money. Or the story about Daddy/Chet taking Gideon with him to rob those rich people while they are away from home. Then Gideon being left for a long time at the bus station by Daddy Love!! Gideon had no idea if he was being left behind or what.

Chapter III
III Ann Arbor, MI, 09/12

M: That is the conclusion of the novel. Robbie getting back to being Robbie, being reunited with his family, one he barely remembers. No wonder he is reluctant. No wonder they all need professional help. And I am sure they'll be getting there. There is so much love from the parents. And in time, Robbie will see the advantage of a real family. At least we can all hope for it.
L: I didn't like the ambiguous ending for Daddy Love! I like solid endings and was hoping to see/hear a satisfactory outcome to Daddy Love's/Chet's trial. I was telling another friend about the ambiguous ending and was told that JCO writes ambiguous endings frequently. It's been a while since I've read anything by JCO, so I don't recall if this is the case or not. Maybe the ambiguous ending was due to the fact there could be no satisfactory ending to this story. Robbie is damaged and may never be normal again even with years of therapy. We already saw him turning into Daddy Love/Chet in this last of five chapters as he doesn't care about school anymore, starts acting out towards teachers, thinks poorly of women like Daddy Love (calling them cunts), thinks the new kid Daddy Love brought home is whiney, believes the lies Daddy Love/Chet said about his parents giving him up, and does various acts of arson and bomb he made and left behind. Robbie seems to have two personalities due to the abuse by Daddy Love. Robbie hides behind a mask and is guarded, not letting anyone know his true feelings. So, I'm left wondering if Robbie will ever trust anyone again or show his true self. And, who is the unidentified man at the end!? Did you ever draw a conclusion about the person Robbie/Gideon was eating lunch with when his mom found him?
M: I never realized that a lot of JCO's books end that way but now that you mention it, I can see it. I don't mind them so much. A "final" end would have been too happy-endish, if you know what I mean. It will take a long time, if ever, before the family can start a new life. Same as you, I have no idea who the guy at the end was, if he had any meaning at all. But the final sentence gave me hope. "Hi Mom". I am still thinking about the review I am going to write. I will definitely include the link to your post. The rest, I will have to see. I usually try not to give away too much to the readers but might include some of your thoughts. If that's alright with you.
******

And here is Lisa's post.

From the back cover: 

"Have they found him?
Have they found Robbie?
They waited.
Each hour of the day they waited.
No one told her, the latest news, for the latest news was usually no news.
A day, a night, two days, several days, a week and finally twelve days - and then, fifteen days:
no news."

Book Description:

"Daddy Love, aka Reverend Chester Cash, has for years abducted, tortured, and raped young boys. His latest victim is Robbie, now renamed 'Gideon,' and brainwashed into believing that he is Daddy Love's real son. Any time the boy resists or rebels he is met with punishment beyond his wildest nightmares. As Robbie grows older he begins to realize that the longer he is locked in the shackles of this demon, the greater chance he'll end up like Daddy Love's other 'sons' who were never heard from again. Somewhere within this tortured boy lies a spark of rebellion... and soon he will see just what lengths he must go to in order to have any chance at survival."

There are tons of quotes but I just leave it at this one:
"After all these years, Joyce Carol Oates can still give me the creeps." Marilyn Stasio, New York Times Book Review

Turgenev, Ivan "Fathers and Sons"

Turgenev, Ivan "Fathers and Sons" (Russian: Отцы и дети/Otzy i deti) - 1862

I love Russian authors, as all my friends know. But I had never read a book by Turgenjew. So, I was happy that #2 was chosen for our classic spin this term.

Was it as good as most of the other Russian authors I read? Yes, it was. I loved reading about life in Russia in the middle of the nineteenth century, when times started to change, farmers got more freedom, serfdom started to be abolished and the whole order of society was questioned.

Almost any kind of character was described in this book, diffferent ages, different social status, different education, different housholds, town and countryside, students and farmers, parents and children, women and men (which doesn't happen often in those books).

According to Wikipedia, this is considered the first modern Russian novel. I can well believe that. Changes were coming and the author managed to put that situation to paper.

In any case, I can highly recommend this book. And not just to those who love classics and/or Russian literature.

From the back cover:

"Bazarov—a gifted, impatient, and caustic young man—has journeyed from school to the home of his friend Arkady Kirsanov. But soon Bazarov’s outspoken rejection of authority and social conventions touches off quarrels, misunderstandings, and romantic entanglements that will utterly transform the Kirsanov household and reflect the changes taking place across all of nineteenth-century Russia.

Fathers and Sons enraged the old and the young, reactionaries, romantics, and radicals alike when it was first published. At the same time, Turgenev won the acclaim of Flaubert, Maupassant, and Henry James for his craftsmanship as a writer and his psychological insight. Fathers and Sons is now considered one of the greatest novels of the nineteenth century.

A timeless depiction of generational conflict during social upheaval, it vividly portrays the clash between the older Russian aristocracy and the youthful radicalism that foreshadowed the revolution to come—and offers modern-day readers much to reflect upon as they look around at their own tumultuous, ever changing world."

Here are all the books on my original Classics Club list.
And here is a list of all the books I read with the Classics Spin.

Top Ten Tuesday ~ Ordinal Numbers

 

"Top Ten Tuesday" is an original feature/weekly meme created on the blog "The Broke and the Bookish". It was created because they are particularly fond of lists. It is now hosted by Jana from That Artsy Reader Girl.

Since I am just as fond of them as they are, I jump at the chance to share my lists with them! Have a look at their page, there are lots of other bloggers who share their lists here.

This week's topic is Ordinal Numbers (Ordinal numbers are numbers that define an item’s place in a series. For example: first, second, third, fourth, tenth, fourteenth, thirty-third, one hundredth, etc)

I thought I had read more books with ordinal numbers but it was hard to find ten that start with an ordinal numbers. So, I had to cheat a little. But most of the books I mention fit the description.

Buck, Pearl S. "The First Wife and Other Stories" - 1933

Camus, Albert "The First Man" (F: Le premier homme) - 1994

Fo, Dario "My First Seven Years (Plus a Few More)" (I: Il Paese dei Mezaràt: I miei primi sette anni (e qualcuno in più) - 2004
Ingalls Wilder, Laura "The First Four Years" (Little House Books) - 1932-71

Scott, Mary "First Things First" - 1973

Ung, Loung "First They Killed My Father. A Daughter of Cambodia Remembers" - 2000 

Lamb, Wally "The Hour I First Believed" - 2008

Alexievich, Svetlana "Second Hand Time. The Last of the Sovjets" (RUS: Время секонд хэнд/Vremja sekond khend) - 2013 

Pollock, David C., & Van Reken, Ruth "Third Culture Kids" - 2001 

Harari, Yuval Noah "21 Lessons for the 21st Century" - 2018

📚 Happy Reading 📚

Literary Wives

The wives:

Becky from Sydney of Aidanvale
Kate from Melbourne of booksaremyfavoriteandbest
Naomi from Canada of Consumed By Ink
Rebecca from Maryland, USA of Bookish Beck
Kay from What? Me Read?
and now me.

The other day, I finished a book (Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus) and was led to the Literary Wives page by one of my blogger friends who had reviewed it before. They read four books a year with regards to wives in the book. I have read a few of them already. And I have more on my list that would be great to discuss with these ladies. So, I decided to join them.

The books:
This is the list of books they read so far, and I am going to add the other books that we are going to read. But you can always find the links to all the comments on the main page: Literary Wives (the links on this one here only get you to my page).

October 2013: Ahab’s Wife: or, The Star-Gazer by Sena Jeter Naslund
December 2013:  The Wife, the Maid, and the Mistress by Ariel Lawhon
February 2014: The Inquisitor’s Wife by Jeanne Kalogridis
April 2014: The Zookeeper’s Wife by Diane Ackerman
June 2014: The Crane Wife by Patrick Ness
August 2014: The World’s Wife by Carol Ann Duffy
October 2014: Wife 22 by Melanie Gideon
December 2014: The Shoemaker’s Wife by Adriana Trigiani
February 2015: The Last Wife of Henry VIII by Carolly Erickson
April 2015: The Bishop’s Wife by Mette Ivie Harrison
June 2015: My Father’s Wives by Mike Greenberg
August 2015: The Astronaut Wives Club by Melanie Benjamin
October 2015: The Silent Wife by A.S.A. Harrison
December 2015: The Kitchen God’s Wife by Amy Tan
February 2016: A Circle of Wives by Alice LaPlante
April 2016: The Happy Marriage by Tahar Ben Jelloun
June 2016: The Disobedient Wife by Annika Milisic-Stanley
August 2016: How to Be a Good Wife by Emma Chapman
October 2016: American Housewife by Helen Ellis
December 2016: Mrs. Hemingway by Naomi Wood
February 2017: The Wife by Meg Wolitzer
April 2017: Z: A Novel of Zelda Fitzgerald by Theresa Fowler
June 2017: The Awakening by Kate Chopin
August 2017: On Beauty by Zadie Smith - 2005
October 2017: Dept. of Speculation by Jenny Offill
December 2017: A Lady and Her Husband by Amber Reeves
February 2018: The Blazing World by Siri Hustvedt
April 2018: The Headmaster’s Wife by Thomas Christopher Green
June 2018: Stay With Me by Ayòbámi Adébáyò
August 2018: First Love by Gwendolyn Riley
October 2018: An American Marriage by Tayari Jones
December 2018: The Stars Are Fire by Anita Shreve
February 2019: They Were Sisters by Dorothy Whipple
April 2019: Wait for Me, Jack by Addison Jones
June 2019:  A Separation by Katie Kitamura
August 2019: Ties by Domenico Starnone
October 2019: Happenstance by Carol Shields
December 2019: The Home-Maker by Dorothy Canfield Fisher
March 2020: War of the Wives by Tamar Cohen
June 2020: The Dutch House by Ann Patchett - 2019
September 2020: Alternate Side by Anna Quindlen
December 2020: The Age of Innocence by Edith Wharton
March 2021: Every Note Played by Lisa Genova
June 2021: Monogamy by Sue Miller
September 2021: The Amateur Marriage by Anne Tyler
December 2021: The Summer Wives by Beatriz Williams
March 2022: I’m Fine and Neither Are You by Camille Pagán
June 2022: The Sentence by Louise Erdrich
September 2022: Red Island House by Andrea Lee
December 2022: State of the Union by Nick Hornsby
March 2023: His Only Wife by Peace Adzo Medie
June 2023: The Harpy by Megan Hunter
September 2023: Sea Wife by Amity Gaige
December 2023: Hamnet by Maggie O’Farrell - 2020
March 2024: Mrs. March by Virginia Feito
June 2024: Recipe for a Perfect Wife by Karma Brown
September 2024: Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston
December 2024: Euphoria by Elin Culhed
March 2025: Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus - 2020
June 2025: The Constant Wife by W. Somerset Maugham
September 2025: Novel about My Wife by Emily Perkins
December 2025: The Soul of Kindness by Elizabeth Taylor
March 2026: Mrs. Bridge by Evan S. Connell
June 2026: Interpreter of Maladies by Jhumpa Lahiri - 1999
September 2026: Family Family by Laurie Frankel - 2024
December 2026: The Eden Test by Adam Sternbergh
March 2027: Wedded Wife by Rachel Lennon - 2023
June 2027: Liars by Sarah Manguso - 2024
September 2027: Brick Lane by Monica Ali - 2003
December 2027: Parallel Lives: Five Victorian Marriages by Phyllis Rose - 1983
March 2028: The Course of Love by Alain de Botton - 2016
June 2028: My Husband (Mon Mari) by Maud Ventura - 2021

I also read the following books with "wife" in the title:
Buck, Pearl S. "The First Wife and Other Stories" - 1933
Hay, Ashley "The Railwayman's Wife" - 2013
Joinson, Suzanne "The Photographer's Wife" - 2016
McLain, Paula "The Paris Wife" - 2012
Shalev, Zeruya "Husband and Wife" (Hebr: בעל ואישה) - 2000
I will probably add one or the other to this list later.